Parabola Community Forum: Games & Multimediahttps://labs.parabola.nu/https://labs.parabola.nu/favicon.ico?15367742552022-12-02T13:19:43ZParabola Issue Tracker
Redmine Games & Multimedia: RE: Minetest Modshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/1296?r=1467#message-14672022-12-02T13:19:43Zpenaiple
<p>AFAIK minetest's ContentDB ("the default repo") allows nonfree packages to some degree, but minetest blacklists them by default which you can manually change if you want to, as explained here <a class="external" href="https://content.minetest.net/help/non_free/">https://content.minetest.net/help/non_free/</a><br />I think this should be fine, considering that it's a blacklist you can bypass if you really wanted to, just like parabola's your-freedom you can just uninstall to forcefully install proprietary packages.</p> Games & Multimedia: Many Tom Lehrer albums are now libre!https://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/13502022-05-22T15:27:02Zgap
<p><a class="external" href="https://tomlehrersongs.com">https://tomlehrersongs.com</a><br />It appears that he dedicated many albums to the public domain.<br />I think he did this in 2020 and I somehow missed it until now.</p>
<p>You may know some of the songs he wrote, particularly "The Elements Song".</p>
<a name="Freedom-Issues"></a>
<h1 >Freedom Issues<a href="#Freedom-Issues" class="wiki-anchor">¶</a></h1>
<p>- I presume the disclaimer statement actually does dedicate the works in question to the public domain.<br />- The PDFs which accompany this release do not have the source form available.<br />Would anyone be interested in reconstructing LaTeX and MuseScore files of the lyrics and sheet music respectively, or build a package which includes the files of this release?<br />If not I've added these things to the list of potentially interesting projects I might do one day.<br />- Some of his albums and the video recordings of his performances are still proprietary.<br />- Not all of the lyric PDFs in the release accompany a recording.<br />- I don't think the album cover art is libre either.<br />- Some of the lyrics he wrote go along with proprietary music.<br />- Some of the recordings are live but some are from a studio.<br />I presume there is a master/multi-track recording of each layer of audio, which is not included, although it's entirely possible these recordings were recorded in one go and not mixed together.<br />Some of the songs were obviously mixed together, especially the ones which have overlapping vocals, eg. "Selling Out".<br />Therefore, as there is no libre source form, these particular studio songs are proprietary, despite being in the public domain (that is if the disclaimer worked).<br />- The site itself, including the design, font, and MP3 streaming pages might be proprietary (I didn't check).</p>
<a name="Narrowly-avoided-Freedom-Issues"></a>
<h1 >Narrowly-avoided Freedom Issues<a href="#Narrowly-avoided-Freedom-Issues" class="wiki-anchor">¶</a></h1>
<p>- The patents which encumbered MP3 expired in 2017.<br />- The RAR format in which the release is encoded can be understood by <code>unar</code> in the <code>unarchiver</code> package; <code>unrar</code> is proprietary and blacklisted.</p>
<p>Did I miss any issues?</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: Minetest Modshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/1296?r=1339#message-13392022-05-08T15:32:06Zgap
<p>Minetest is a TPPM (third-party package manager), which means it uses non-Parabola repos which are not necessarily compliant with the GNU FSDG or the Parabola Social Contract, and as such may contain proprietary software or proprietary media.<br />The short-term solution would be to disable this functionality, and the long-term solution would be to start compliant repos and patch the TPPMs to use them instead.<br />See <a class="issue tracker-4 status-3 priority-4 priority-high4 parent" title="Freedom Issue: [your-system-sanity]: Non-Free Software From Third-party Package Managers (TPPM) (in progress)" href="https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/1035">#1035</a>.</p>
<p>For the time being whilst TPPMs are packaged in the Parabola repos and themselves use dubious third-party repos, my advice would be to make sure what you are installing is genuinely libre.<br />I currently use this manual workaround for Cargo, Cabal, Stack, and vim-plug.</p>
<p>In general, anything which connects to the network has the potential for pulling in proprietary software or media, so be careful what you download.</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: Minetest Modshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/1296?r=1330#message-13302022-05-08T06:31:41Zbill-auger
<p>the short answer is yes it should be possible to use those mods, if they support the same minetest version that parabola has - they probebly do</p>
<p>the shorter answer is "try it and see"</p>
<p>the long answer is that anything in debian main is libre by debian's definition (the DFSG); and probably libre by the FSF's definition (the FSDG) - debian's standard for games and artwork is actually more strict than the FSF's - it is closer to parabola's definition of "free culture", which the FSDG does not require as strictly - if trisquel has those packages, it it most likely because debian packages them in the main (libre) repo - most trisquel packages are the identical debian packages</p>
<p>what i can not say is how well debian packagers adhere their own standards, or if trisquel scrutinizes those game/art packages, as much as parabola would want to - and i must specify "want to", not actually does - there are so many games and art packages, and their usefulness-to-maintenance ratio is so low, that scrutiny is not an optimal use of the limited time we have available - please do this if you are so inclined - maybe parabola can adopt some of them</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: Minetest Modshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/1296?r=1316#message-13162022-05-07T16:54:47Zryry
<p>I had a look on Trisquel and it turns out they have mods packaged, So I was wondering given they are another FSDG compliant distro and the files are just lua, configs and pngs, it should be possible verify the packages then copy over the mod to the minetest server running on parabola arm/x86 etc. Please correct me if I am wrong.</p>
<p>Ry</p> Games & Multimedia: Minetest Modshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/12962022-04-24T11:28:31Zryry
<p>I have been playing the Minetest version we have in the repo's and that all works fine, but adding some extra game mods on a private server seems to be suggested in order customise etc, however, I am sure that unverified mods present potential issues of free software (if they aren't and or contain non free artwork etc) and security (malicious acvtivity etc) so would want to avoid them. Now there is a a mods team and they host these on github at <a class="external" href="https://github.com/minetest-mods">https://github.com/minetest-mods</a>, and debian also seemingly packages for debian users. So firstly, is there any way in which Libre compatible mods could be available for parabola users? And secondly (espcially if we can not have them in the repos) would it be better to avoid mods all together (my current thinking) or to use ones which are compatible but vet them myself? (this is really just a can I have some advice what the best practice would be part of the question).</p>
<p>Lastly, the in game contentdb recommend mods and games, which both the github page and debian <a class="external" href="https://wiki.debian.org/Games/Minetest#Install_and_enable_mods">https://wiki.debian.org/Games/Minetest#Install_and_enable_mods</a> ,say that not all are not necessarily freely licensed, so would that mean that the current version in parabola, is at risk of recommending non-free software or add-ons and thus might need to be removed/blacklisted anyway?</p>
<p>Many Thanks to whoever replies<br />ryry</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: CorsixTH/Free Software game engineshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/310?r=328#message-3282020-03-18T21:25:35ZTime4Tea
<p><a class="user active" href="https://labs.parabola.nu/users/282">bill-auger</a> I agree with a lot of the points you make about scummvm. However, I wouldn't exactly call OpenMW a 'new' engine. It's been around since 2008 - 6 years prior to godot. But yes, I see what you mean: there are lots of free engines, but apparently not very many actual free games to run on them (which I find surprising).</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: CorsixTH/Free Software game engineshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/310?r=327#message-3272020-03-18T20:06:37Zbill-auger
<p>the question of "software disguised as data" is a tricky one indeed - i only know of those scummvm games because they are in debian main; and i was reluctant to mention them, because of the dubious wording of the debian licensing - it says that the authors released the games under a free license, and that the games consist of data files, which, like the FSF, debian does not held to the same standards as software - but, then it goes on to say like: "... unfortunately, all original sources were lost ... even the authors do not have the preferred form anymore ... so all we have is the blobs from the floppies" - thats kinda a dubious statement because, if it is "just data", then what would be preferable about "the lost sources" anyways</p>
<p>the scummvm games are very regular though - i dont think it is possible to add any novel interactions, such as puzzles - i can imagine how it could use declarative data to create click maps, character movement paths, and dialog interactions, and guard progress (locked doors) per named dependencies, and so on - i suppose someone would need to be familiar with scummvm to know for sure; but that is a very old game engine - probably no one is going to make new games for it; so its not relevant to Time4Tea's concern: the future of libre gaming - newer game engines probably all allow scripting</p>
regarding Time4Tea's post - a new game engine is not going to encourage new games - there are already many freely licensed 3D game engines already - several of them are very mature and full-featured - to name a few well-known ones:
<ul>
<li>blender</li>
<li>godot</li>
<li>ogre</li>
<li>panda3d</li>
</ul>
<p>IMHO, if the goal is to encourage new games, it would be much more fruitful to NOT make any more game engines; but to focus on keeping one of the existing ones more comparable in features to the proprietary game engines</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: CorsixTH/Free Software game engineshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/310?r=326#message-3262020-03-18T18:44:44ZTime4Tea
<p>I think the point about scripting is a good one. I checked for Morrowind and the scripts seem to be bundled into binary data files, so it is still non-free.</p>
<p>However, I still like the openMW project and I want to support it. Right now, there don't seem to be many high-quality free-software 3D games available that can compete with mainstream franchises like Elder Scrolls. Having a functional free-software 3D engine seems to me to be a good step towards enabling free-software games in the future (even if, right now, the only games available for it are non-free). With OpenMW, it is possible to use it as a base to develop a 100% free game, and I believe there are some people working on doing that.</p>
<p>freemor wrote:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>So As bill-auger alluded to unless there are libre games for such an engine, then the only reason the engine exists is to run non-free software disguised as data.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Tbh, I think is overly black or white. As I mentioned above, a free software engine can, in principle, be used as a base to create a free software game, even if no free games currently exist for it. There is something of a chicken-and-egg situation - you can't have a free software game without a free engine to run it on. The OpenMW team is also working on a free builder package.</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: CorsixTH/Free Software game engineshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/310?r=325#message-3252020-03-15T18:40:43Zfreemor
<p>My first question WRT the non-free bits would be, "What is this engine chewing on?". I doubt there is an engine that make a game out of data that is strictly limited to Graphic/Audio files.</p>
<p>Once you go beyond that into any sort of scripting (for plot, MPC behaviour, puzzles, etc.) then you are right back to running non-free software, Just what in a blob given to an Engine (interpreter).</p>
<p>Python is Libre. One can think of it as an engine to run games in. A non-free game running in the Libre python "engine" does not some how magically sanitize the game. And, yes I know every one here probably know this much. The thing that is getting lost is that there has to be interpreted parts (whether script or some sort of p-code) that the engine "runs" to make it able to do different games.</p>
<p>So As bill-auger alluded to unless there are libre games for such an engine, then the only reason the engine exists is to run non-free software disguised as data.</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: CorsixTH/Free Software game engineshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/310?r=324#message-3242020-03-15T16:45:36Zryry
<p>Thanks bill-auger,<br /> :) I have never been good at writing what I meant to say, so it needed to be changed, alas I see your point, but I understand that no person can posses "libreness", it was perhaps a poor choice of words on my part and I was at fault there. What, I was really asking, was does the using the artwork/graphics/data files, constitute the use of non free software, given that the clarification is not clear amongst the free software movement. <br /> My reference to "ethical software" was more along the lines to <br /> "Nonfree game programs (like other non-free programs) are unethical because they deny freedom to their users" from <a class="external" href="https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/nonfree-games.en.html">https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/nonfree-games.en.html</a> ,<br />however I feel my usage was a little sloppy and hence It appeared confused. I realise it is perhaps only relevant to the data files, but only if they are considered software?<br />As the graphics/media/artworks in which they deny a person the right to share or alter them etc, pose another issue, but not a software freedom issue and dependent (as you also said) on your own ethical values and the way you intend to use it .</p>
<p>Many Thanks<br />Ry ry</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: CorsixTH/Free Software game engineshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/310?r=323#message-3232020-03-15T15:57:32Zbill-auger
<p>i did intend that to be taken as a dismissal of ethical concerns from the question entirely - i was mostly commenting on this part:</p>
<pre><code>"non free graphics/artwork/media involved, would render this a no go for anyone wanting to remain libre?"</code></pre>
<p>my point was just that a person can not "remain libre", nor lose their "libre-ness"; because that is not a property that a person can posses, or a state that a person can be in, like" soberiety - libre is a property of the software itself - software does not do anything <em>to_people</em>, nor change their person in any way - the concern is: what the license of that software allows people to do <em>with_it</em></p>
<p>so, if you do not want to modify or share the artwork for that game, then you do in fact, have the permission to do everything that you want to do with that program - everyone involved is content with that situation; so one really can not draw any ethical conclusions from it - however, if you decide that you would like to do more with it, such as sharing it with someone else, then there is cause to refer to ethics</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: CorsixTH/Free Software game engineshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/310?r=322#message-3222020-03-15T15:13:52Zryry
<p>Edited, the posts for clarity. :) <br />ry ry</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: CorsixTH/Free Software game engineshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/310?r=321#message-3212020-03-15T13:52:00Zbill-auger
<p>if the free software program can not function without utilizing some other software, which is proprietary; then one could easily draw an ethical conflict from that - especially, if the author of that software suggests buying the required proprietary software, and directs users to the vendor - to buy that proprietary software, is to support it's publishers, which encourage them to make more proprietary software, is it not?</p>
scummvm is not in that category - there are several scummvm games that are freely licensed and could be included in parabola - eg:
<ul>
<li>Beneath a Steel Sky</li>
<li>Drascula: The Vampire Strikes Back</li>
<li>Flight of the Amazon Queen</li>
<li>Lure of the Temptress</li>
</ul>
<p>the general question reads to me like: "if i drink this cough medicine, can i remain sober?" - the situation is not like that - whether you play that game or not, it is not going to alter you in any way; and there are no ethics involved in that decision - it is unnecessarily confusing for people to conflate software freedom with ethics, as if they were synonymous - software freedom is a purely objective and verifiable concept - it is nothing more or less, than the licensing terms, printed in black and white - ethics, on the other hand, is a purely subjective concept, and varies from person to person, and culture to culture, as does the criteria by which it is decided</p>
<p>so there are actually two distinct questions lurking in that:</p>
<pre><code>1. if i play this game, can i have software freedom?</code></pre>
<p>the answer to that is clearly: "no" - the authors can not give you that freedom - they designed that game such that anyone who uses it, can not have the freedom to modify or share some of the essential components of the game</p>
<pre><code>2. if i play this game, can i be an ethical person?</code></pre>
<p>software does not, and can not, have ethics; no more than a hammer can - ethics apply to people - conversely, software can be libre, by the nature of it's licensing; but a person can not "be libre" - no one is in any ethical danger from using proprietary software for their own private purpose; because ethics are not applicable to a person's private life - that concept is only applicable to the way in which people choose to treat other people; such as requiring them, or suggesting to them, to forfeit their freedom, in trade for some entertainment - everyone is free to forfeit their freedom of their own volition - there is no ethical conflict in that decision; but in situations where someone entices or compels another person to do something, that is where ethics can be invoked</p> Games & Multimedia: RE: CorsixTH/Free Software game engineshttps://labs.parabola.nu/boards/14/topics/310?r=320#message-3202020-03-15T12:40:31Zryry
<p>Hi. Thanks Time4Tea.</p>
<p>Thanks for the link, I had a look at OpenMW in the repos, and the situation does appear similar, if not near identical, in that you have to use the original game graphics, sound and perhaps most importantly data files, having non-free/libre game graphics, as the fsf suggest that the art/media is a separate issue and being a advocate of Free culture myself, I would be happier if the graphics/data etc of any game was copyleft, however as you say, it doesn't present an issue with <del>the ethics of the software</del> or compromise any of the 4 essential freedoms. I guess my concern was how the data files where considered regarding the how the software runs. As i had heard that sometimes they ran scripts. Thanks again for the info:)</p>
<p>ryry</p>